On Charlottesville: Interview with The Rev. Winnie Varghese and remarks from Bill Campbell

On Charlottesville: An Interview with The Rev. Winnie Varghese, Director of Justice and Reconciliation at Trinity Wall Street

The Nazi and White Supremacist march in Charlottesville, VA rocked many of us to our core. There, on national television, and in our social media feeds, was playing out a scene which I think many of us never thought we would see in our lifetime. This is America, we think. This can’t happen here. One thing I have been reminded of this week is that viewpoint is a privileged one.

We have a responsibility to not forget that there are people around us, people who we claim to love and identify as neighbors, who deal with bigotry and hatred every day. We can no longer think of racism and Nazism as long-ago problems that don’t affect us.

Part of the perverse logic of the Nazi marchers was to raise attention to their cause. It was intentional. They want the world to know that they exist. They are organized and there are thousands of them. If you watch the Vice Documentary on Charlottesville, they clearly want you to know that they are everywhere. They are armed. They advocate for violence. They advocate for the forced removal of those who stand against them. This is terrorism. It is the same type of terror that people from marginalized communities experience most of their lives.

We will fight against them; that much seems obvious now. But, we must do it without forgetting the hard lessons of the past. The church was, is, and could continue to be, part of the problem. Walter Brueggemann talks about the inherent violence and racism of White, Western Christianity (see An Alternative Way). Martin Luther King, as described in the interview with Rev. Winnie Varghese below, said that one of his largest mistakes was waiting for white southern clergy to come to the aid of the civil rights movement. In the coming days, you will see many people attempt to help us navigate the ways in which can be the place of healing and reconciliation. Our own board member, Samantha Haycock, will be hosting a webinar on Wednesday August 24, at 11 am CST for anyone who wants to talk about how to best do this. (click here to register) We will follow that webinar up with another from Eduardo Rivera and then finally a third one to discuss the Becoming Beloved Community. All of this is meant to help us prepare four conference coming up in January Formed for Justice. (click here for more details and to sign up today)

It is also not lost on me that Forma has not always been a safe place for persons of color, our LGBTQI neighbors, or their allies. Know this, Forma is dedicated to being truthful about our past transgressions, admitting our fault, and moving into a future of mutual responsibility. Our number one priority for the work of the Forma board and other leadership is Lead By Example. This will mean inviting our friends from underrepresented communities into leadership, letting them guide us into our future. Be on the lookout for more information about these developments.

It was a privilege, of a different sort, to speak with Rev. Winnie Varghese, Priest and Director of Justice and Reconciliation at Trinity Wall Street in New York City. Winnie was in Charlottesville on Friday evening and Saturday for the counter protest. She is a faithful witness to the love of Christ, and I was so very thankful for her gracious acceptance to this interview. Enjoy:

Interview Begin: (Bill Campbell in bold, Rev. Winnie Varghese in plain type)

How did you first find out about the Nazi march in Charlottesville?

People keep asking me this. St. Paul’s Memorial Church sent an email to me and a few other people asking if we could come. Explained about the July rally the Klan held. Elaine asked for my presence weeks ahead of the Nazi rally. Honestly, I almost passed because I was getting back from Standing Rock with a large group just days before, I had to get kids ready to go off to college, and I had a vacation planned, plus I was one of the only clergy left in town and I had to celebrate at Church on Sunday. Command performance.

Like I said, I didn’t take it up right away. Family obligations were really getting in the way. St. Paul’s asked me to take an official role and eventually, I just made it work. Without the personal invitation, I don’t think I would have been there.

I think one of the reasons people ask about this, or at least where my guilt about not being there enters, is that I was oblivious to the Nazi march until Saturday morning. Why didn’t more people know about this ahead of time? We all knew as it was happening, but it wasn’t all over my news feed or my social media feed until Saturday morning…

Yeah, I asked about this as well. St. Paul’s told me that they had broadcasted it out through their social media platforms, but honestly, I hadn’t seen it until I got the personal invitations. The social media I found was all text, I shared it, but I’m not convinced it made it very far.

I think Facebook and the others [Social media sites] favor sharing images, not text alone. That might be part of the problem. This is why I thank God for the network of support with Forma, people like Samantha Haycock and Sarah Stonesifer who just get this stuff.

So, this is going to sound so basic, but I want to know – What did you take with you?

I’m the worst preparer. I don’t have a strong sense of my personal safety. This was not a safe space, but it was not the most dangerous I’ve been in. I brought my good walking shoes so that I could march. I wish we were all wearing the same thing. Make t-shirts for your group. I usually take a banner with me from my church, make people know that we are there. Clothes that I’m comfortable being photographed in and marching in. I always wear my collar and/or vestments of some kind for visibility. I usually bring a sign. None of the signs they had there for me were good for me to carry. Many of my friends who do this have created stuff that travels well and can be used for many purposes.

I carry the daily offices with me on my phone. A back-up battery that is also a case and headphones so that I can take part in prayer while in active protest. I always bring a small umbrella. If I think I will get arrested, I will let my bishop and my wardens and my rector know and let them know my plan for getting bailed out.

How important is that you have that kind of plan?

It depends on your location. In New York, I have to be able to communicate to my boss and others what I’m doing. I was NOT putting myself in a position to get arrested since I had to be here to lead services for Trinity. But if I had intended on civil disobedience I would have let my bishop and others know.

I feel like this is so different depending on what part of the country folks are in. My West Coaster formation people often don’t think about checking in with their bosses or their bishops, but it was so important to me coming up in the South that I run everything through my boss…

Yes, when I was in LA, I didn’t have to square everything with my rector or with my bishop when I was a rector. They just didn’t necessarily want to know unless I expected them to do something about it. Here at Trinity and in New York, I am aware that I have to let my Rector know, because he cares, and I need to let the Wardens and the Bishop know.

I feel like it’s important that Forma members know that this is a thing…checking in with the boss. Even if they don’t want you to do this thing, even if they are opposed to you getting arrested, they should know that you are going to go.

Yes, it’s important. And it’s important that you go!

What were your feelings in Charlottesville?

I grew up in Texas and Dallas, I’m from Diocese of LA and I’ve been in New York for 15 years. I haven’t been in a place where there are so many historical markers in a place like that. Charlottesville shows a history of genteel confederacy. The architecture suggests a history of genteel confederacy. Charlottesville treats is planter culture and history as though it is a gentlemen’s agreement and a civil thing. It showed abhorrent racism and an obfuscation of humanity. It felt gross and difficult to be there.

[*Note from Bill: If you haven’t seen the excellent (links to a video which might be upsetting) Vice News Documentary found here, you should. There is a section where a young black woman talks about being able to see the plantation Master from any point in town. The Jefferson statue on top of Monticello serves as a minute-to-minute reminder of her place in that society. The entire piece is a very good, only 20-minute, look into how the Charlottesville protests came to be, what the Nazi’s intended, and what they want the future to be. You should know that this is hard to watch.]

I was proud to go to St. Paul’s and see their sign that they were having a community service where everyone was welcome. It was an inversion of the planter class architecture.

Friday night there was a fire code problem with how many people were there at St. Paul’s. It was heartening to see so many white people there. At least one thousand people were there. Traci Blackman’s sermon was one of the best I’ve ever heard. It was graphic, and emotional. She tied cutting off the head of Goliath and bringing an end to slavery and racism. Her emotional connection to racism was profound – the truths and horror. Pastor of the UCC church in Ferguson. When she approached the Black Lives Matters organizers to offer her Church as a place of help she was told, “The Church is part of the problem. It might be a good place to meet and they need bandages and water.” She did that and stayed out of the way – eventually she helped them to see her as a leader. She should be our leader for how we move forward.

When you see the protests on the news, you see the photogenic, violent moment. Those are true moments, but you might miss the smaller moments where the Church shows up and sings the songs of protest. It’s important that we show up and model the Church and the history of peaceful protest. Support each other even when we disagree along the way.

The moment when the Nazis showed up with those stupid tiki torches, it was triggering (and this might be the only time I have seen triggering as the appropriate description) for the older leaders of the Civil Rights Movement. They didn’t want to walk out the front door. They were scared for the safety of the group. They remembered being young and having men with torches come to their homes to kill. They felt that no one was going to protect them. I was watching this older man who had survived for so long, who was so scared and did not want me to walk out the front door. He was shaking, he had such fear. He was a strong and amazing man who had survived so much.

I wanted to walk out the front door and go to my hotel. I wasn’t scared, but I didn’t have the history that they had. The people asking us to stay inside and wait for the Police has such a different view. They didn’t want us to go outside, they also had no real reason to believe that the police were there to protect them…but we waited anyway.

I had no idea why I was picked to lead the closing prayer, and someone came up to me to ask me to sing long and pray long. “People are coming and we need to stay in the Church.” He said, “There are people out here with torches, so sing loud to let them know we are in here.” We did that for 15 minutes until the police came and created a barrier for us. The older leaders were just so worried about our safety.

It was interesting to think about who the police were there to protect and what to protect. I’m not sure that the Police were there to protect us, or to stop them from hurting us… I’m not sure what was going on there.

What are your feelings since? We haven’t gotten into Saturday and what it must have been like to be at a service with Cornell West…it must have been amazing, or what Saturday was like- but I’m really curious how you feel since you have gotten home –

I was sitting next to Cornell West on Saturday morning. His encyclopedic knowledge of American History and his intellectual heritage was stunning.

I wasn’t preaching Sunday when I came back, I was just the primary celebrant. I was at the beach on Sunday and Monday and I realized that I was exhausted and it was because I hadn’t processed what had happened.

There is something about being at Charlottesville, where you are standing in what is true but not visible about us as humans. It gives meaning and you know your role. People say this about war and being a first responder – that there is a clarity and bond with others you experience- but for me, seeing these things that are the underbelly of us as humans feels resonant. I see the things that I know – that they are just people. It will take power away from them, to know them. I saw the enemy and I saw that they are just people. They are dangerous, but they aren’t an idea. They are just people and now I know the fight and who I’m fighting with.

I’m getting ready to go to Sri Lanka to a place that has received no aid since the end of the civil war. Once you have seen a people and seen their needs, you can’t NOT respond. I have realigned my own heart to what is important. I work in the Church, I can get caught up in Average Sunday Attendance (ASA) and liturgy, but those things are not the most important. I am reminded, and need to be reminded that those are not the most important.

I feel like a fool when I go somewhere. “Who the hell needs me? I’m not critical to anything. I’m not delusional about this – I’m not mission critical.” But, the fact that we all show up for these things is what is important. I’m not the presiding Bishop. I’m not a local person. It really needs to be people local to these events who are in charge and at the front. My role is just to show up and be present. I was invited by Elaine. I still feel ridiculous as I’m getting ready for these types of things. But, I also feel that this is where we are supposed to be, we should feel foolish. People ask us to come…that’s all I got.

That feels really resonant to me, I just spent a week at a small conference where we talked about how naked it feels to admit the truth of our ministry in the Church – that all I really have to offer a community is the love of God, everything is icing on the cake or a distraction, depending on how you look it.

That’s true – and to know that the Love of God will transform people in ways that they aren’t prepared for. That the ways in which they want the love of God to transform them will make then uncomfortable and invert their expectations. It’s hard to manage that!

So, pretend you are talking to thousands of formation practitioners, what should Formation people know?

I think Keaton’s post points us to is that, frankly, the love of Jesus without laying out what the love of Jesus means for our society, without laying out concretely what that love means for class or systems of injustice – without real conversation about what our religion means for the world – falls flat. [Elizabeth Kaeton –Facebook post found here – she found out that one of the prominent leaders of the Nazi rally was from her church and passionate member of their EYC program and EYE participant as a youth]

We have lots of privilege, we think safety first. I disagree, I think we should go to what’s dangerous. It was possible to be at Charlottesville and not get hurt. You could be there and not get hurt. I’m by no means blaming victims there, but I was present and was completely safe. Many smart voices are telling us to stay away so that we don’t get hurt. I disagree. We follow Jesus into death and courage. It is right that we ask a lot of our young people – more than money and giving up a Sunday morning – to stand on the side of the right. To alienate our family and challenge ourselves. Forma has a role in advocating that Forma leaders do this with your youth. You know that we lose people because we aren’t asking enough of them better than most…ask them to give their lives to this.

These are our foundational sins as Americans but also as Christians. Institutional Racism is the history of the Church. Look at the Trump religious advisory committee. We like to say that we are going to be a righteous presence. It’s bullshit. No one believes that they are actually advising the President. They are taking advantage of their access to the leader of the world.

This has always been the Church of the Imperial State. We are the Church of Constantine. We are hardwired to align ourselves with power for safety. It is how we are formed.

We should not give our parishioners tons of content, but what would we do if we thought some of our young people might be a neo-Nazi in the future? What would we say to them?

I have been thinking about an article that Broderick Greer posted recently from Playboy Magazine in 1965. Alex Haley, the interviewer, asked Martin Luther King: [text added from article]

Haley: Can you recall any mistakes you’ve made in leading the movement?

King: Well, the most pervasive mistake I have made was in believing that because our cause was just, we could be sure that the white ministers of the South, once their Christian consciences were challenged, would rise to our aid. I felt that white ministers would take our cause to the white power structure. I ended up, of course, chastened and disillusioned. As our movement unfolded, and direct appeals were made to white ministers, most folded their hands—and some even took stands against us.

Let me hasten to say there are some outstanding exceptions…

(full text of the interview found here) We are the Church, we take the bread and read the lessons and sing the hymns, and it still doesn’t transform us and makes us ready to do the work of equality.

So, what is the part beyond the comfortable words and the comfortable liturgy that will make people change?

We have to talk about the systems of injustice that we all live in. We have to let our learners drive the teaching, not guilt or shame, but find ways to really address the institutional stuff around us. We have to use the processes that use what is going on around us and what those implications are. How do we understand ourselves as Christians in the context of this? Episcopal Schools historically have good teaching about this.

Ok, is there anything that I didn’t ask that you want to talk about?

One other perspective – I’m curious about this. What caused the clergy group (Elaine) to lead the coalition of radical activist and Church folks? How did they decide to lead? What did they do? What that was like?

I’ll ask, and I’ll report back! Thank you, Winnie, thank you so much for sharing your insight, this has been one hour so I’ll let you get back to sermon prep and your life on this Friday afternoon.

My pleasure!

END OF INTERVIEW

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